Curse

Laylat · May 01, 2008, 06:20 AM // 06:20

The introduction of new quests would dramatically increase the quality of gameplay. In my opinion, the idea of adding Sorrow's Furnace was a great way to getting people to play together instead of running with henchmen--plus the added motivation of getting *decently* good weapons. What was the downside? Only three classes were utilized; therefore only allowing half of the community to play. This meant that casual people relying on one character were *in most cases* left out in the dust.

The run, although easy, required some skill. It was not spamming the same skill over and over. It as easy enough for the casual gamer (provided he's the correct profession) to get in a few runs now and then.

The introduction of DoA, in my opinion, was an attempt by ANet to introduce a more challenging experience (more so than Surrow's Furnace). One can argue that even with the title "Holy Lightbringer", DoA was still a tough cookie to crack, requiring more experienced players and more team cooperation. Realising this, it makes no sense to me for disallowing people with the rank "Lightbringer" to be part of a PuG. Since the difference is minor, I ask, why should you be disallowed to play for something as trivial as not having a high enough title? The title, in my opinion, should be of a display (self-satisfaction). Personally, I think it would be better if the title Lightbringer was redescribed as "Lightbringer. You have defeated an X number of Abbadon's servants". Yes, invitation to farming builds, but this gives one a choice. You do not have a choice if you are required to be a certain rank because that rank makes you, say, more resilient or powerful. Of course, this excluded HA.

The same applies for the Sunspear title track. It would have been a much better idea to have the track increase upon completing difficult quests; elite quests for max title, perhaps. But, this would not be tied to attributes for PvE skills. Once again, choice.

With the release of EotN, we witnessed the wonders of Ursan Blessing (as well as other, in my opinion, overpowered skills). However, this led to a large percentage of the GW community to rely on a single skill, which further brought down the quality of gameplay. Unlike Sorrow's Furnance, even the casual player can go through normal gameplay and reach a decent Norn title track (6 or 7) and join Ursan groups; working his/her way to max title. With a max title, he/she gains access to a variety of elite areas utilizing this skill. I don't mean this to sound like a good thing. It's unhealthy gameplay. In my opinion, the Norn title track would work very well with, 1) self-satisfaction and/or 2) gaining access to elite areas. The latter may be a bad idea to some, but the main point is that the title detaches itself from skills.

Personally, I enjoy maxing out titles. I have had help from guildies and PuG's. But a lot of them were done with H&H. I've joined Ursan groups to see what the fuss was about and to see why people thought they were so effective. The point is that maxing out titles gives me a sense of achivement. I do not look at it as gaining access to areas. I spend 90% of my time with H&H. Sadly, this is not what an online game is meant to do, but this is the way it has become.

So, if one does not have the "requirements" to join PuGs, he/she can go in one of two directions: grind points untill you can join groups, or learn to work with H&H. The latter for me is more challenging for to the fact that there is some skill and "tense" moments involved. Or just take a break and maybe three months latter, things *might* get better.

In the end, people should be more flexible in the skills used by party members. So what if an HB monk doesn't have heal party? So what if a onk uses power drain instead of GoLE (just an example... both are energy mangment skills). Of course, this applies if the isn't an all-powerful skill.

Agreed with those who said: titles unattached to skills and/or skill attributes will give them the choice to grind for points or not.

Get some new quests, Anet!

MasterSasori · May 03, 2008, 03:19 AM // 03:19

Quote:

Originally Posted by thibault the monk

Also Tyla, you shouldn't speak for everyone when you say that people don't like grinding, i find it very relaxing to go out and just mindlessly kill stuff, and thats why I actually like to play this game for 3 years now, for the farming. Its a simple matter of preference, some people like it some people dont. If the few grinds are still there then it is quite obvious that most people that play either like the grind or don't mind it, otherwise Anet would lose money from people not buying the game at all or future campaigns and would be forced to take out the grinds. Point is, dont speak for everyone when saying grinding = bad.

Are you serious .... >.>

Tyla · May 03, 2008, 04:16 PM // 16:16

Quote:

Originally Posted by thibault the monk

Plz do the math, look at the dungeon guides and heros handbooks, 60,000 + 40,000 + 20,000 + 30,000 = 150,000 = max rank. Anet did think before adding those, thats why they did add them to make it so that people who didn't want to do massive grinding for the points don't have to.

Please do the math. Maxed rep title in GW:EN is 160k.

Quote:

Also Tyla, you shouldn't speak for everyone when you say that people don't like grinding, i find it very relaxing to go out and just mindlessly kill stuff, and thats why I actually like to play this game for 3 years now, for the farming. Its a simple matter of preference, some people like it some people dont. If the few grinds are still there then it is quite obvious that most people that play either like the grind or don't mind it, otherwise Anet would lose money from people not buying the game at all or future campaigns and would be forced to take out the grinds. Point is, dont speak for everyone when saying grinding = bad.

Well, I did.
People bought this game because it was supposedly a grind free game. Not only that, but a PvP based game.
That went down the shit pan with the release of Nightfall, and at the same time, PvP started dying faster, which created a dying playerbase.

And yeah, I've looked into things like this. Many of my friends also despise grind for the same reason I do.

Red Apple · May 03, 2008, 05:12 PM // 17:12

Quote:

Originally Posted by holymasamune

Remember when you load into HA, wanting to experience how fun it is? Three hours later, you're still there, because everyone is spamming "LF r5+ monk" or "LF r9+ ele."

That sucked.

You don't need to be on any rX group, you are defending the point of view which blames the elitist people because all you want is having "fun", but if you truly wanted to have "fun" you would only pick a random party and do HA. I ask you why don't you or anybody pick the people with no ranks? Because you want to win, you don’t feel like wasting your time with the newbies, in other words people are also as elitist as the R9+ group, and that is not casual playing.

I find all the people complaining about it bunch of hypocrites that want to be as "elite" as the guys which are asking for a "rX+" group.
I was there at the beginning of GW where Ha were after Glint, I really enjoyed it really I did, I didn’t feel frustrated by the fact that people wouldn't allow me on the parties, I made one or joined one with newbies and tried the hardest I could healing, I still have a picture of the first Hero point I won. That is the real fun, and I don’t believe that is what you are talking about.

Quote:

Originally Posted by holymasamune

The hero title is one of the biggest symbols of grind (with a little skill), and Anet knows it already killed entry to higher end PvP. It turned players who won't accept someone of a lower rank into "elitist PvPers."

So why are they doing that for PvE now, with all these grind-necessary PvE skills? Are they wanting to turn those same people who cried about "elitist PvPers" into hypocrites when they go out and advertise "LF r8+ ursan" or "LF r3+ SY"? Because that's what happened. One minute, Bob Random posts in Riverside crying about how elitist PvPers are because they won't accept him into their HA groups since he's only rank 2. The next, he goes into DoA and rejects r7 norns because his group is a r8+ ursan group.

Anet didn’t kill PvP, if the ranks were taken out we would be in the same way just this time everyone is angry because most of the people at the party are newbies and /ragequitts every second, and people would still have to look for a HA Guild in order to access it. If Bob really wanted to join a high rank group was because he wanted to be on the major leagues, he was not there for recreation nor casual fun, he wanted to win straight forward into HoH and match the big daddies. He deserves to be trashed, because he is a self proclaimed expert and felt he was way too much for joining newbie parties. You have to admit, HA is not for the casual player that is only there for 1 hr ~5hr, HA is a challenge for the experimented, as well as UW, FoW, and DoA.

The reason they added those titles was to keep people playing, instead of creating GW:4 (which it got canceled because they didn't had enough time for everything they wanted), which people would eat right away, they launched an expansion that would help to expand a bit the lore of Gw and entertain the masses till the release of GW2.
If you remember EoTN is an expansion to all the campaigns which is intended to help players in some way, in other words Blessings, so now Anet has kept players playing, helped them to achieve harder modes of their campaign(s) and also created a small system that would entertain the people for some time HardCoreTitles.

Quote:

Originally Posted by holymasamune

If Anet wants to be like WoW, at least they should make a point of it. You simply don't go out advertising that this is a grind-free game, and when a new player buys it, they find they can't play a large portion of the end-game because their lack of grinding makes it impossible for them to find groups. Sure they can join good guilds running balanced builds, but how likely is that given a very casual player? The direction GW (and GW2) is changing into is one that'll attract more players in general, but with their goal changes, they should also change their advertising.

Where does Anet states it is not a grind-free game? And if it is a casual player why would he be playing in hardcore areas? Those 3 areas(Uw, FoW, DoA) are designed for the fan and not for the casual player, why would a casual player be angry for not getting rare skin weapons, which they are not in anyway inferior to the common skin weapon.

Playing in hard mode/elite areas means you want to play more, people often find those two not as another challenge but part of the mainstream of the game, so they complain about how hard is to finish it so Anet has to respond. There is where the expansion comes in.

There is a moment when the player must turn a bit of dedication in order to get something special on game, and it is not necessary to grind, you could make a farmer, or join a guild, but if even at that people want it more easy then they cannot be helped, those areas, I repeat, are for the fan and in no way they alter the course of the mainstream history or gameplay.

What Guild Wars promises is that a character created the August 24 has the same probabilities of beating a character created on August 1. Guild Wars promises that on PvP: that a lvl 20 char with 2,000,000 exp battling a lvl 20 char with 5,000,000 exp is not inferior in any stat-way to the lvl 20 with over 5mil exp.

Anet is not turning Guild Wars into WoW, YOU ARE dear reader, you are draining Guild Wars stories and concepts too fast and you still want more and more like it, but you don't want to wait and all we have left are the titles.

Abedeus · May 03, 2008, 05:20 PM // 17:20

Quote:

Where does Anet states it is not a grind-free game?

Back of the Prophecies box, where it clearly states that skill, not time spent in-game matters.

Quote:

Anet is not turning Guild Wars into WoW, YOU ARE dear reader, you are draining Guild Wars stories and concepts too fast and you still want more and more like it, but you don't want to wait and all we have left are the titles.

Hmm. Let's see, what's in GW that is in WoW, but shouldn't be...

*Killing a lot of mobs to get an item? Check.
*Quests ,,kill XX mobs, return for reward''? Check.
*Little skill required? Check, but... WoW in high-end areas requires more skill. Don't believe? Remember Leeroy Jenkins? xd
*People playing longer have an advantage? Check.
*Skill < Time < Money? Check.

Did I forget about something?

MasterSasori · May 03, 2008, 05:53 PM // 17:53

Quote:

Originally Posted by Red Apple

You don't need to be on any rX group, you are defending the point of view which blames the elitist people because all you want is having "fun", but if you truly wanted to have "fun" you would only pick a random party and do HA. I ask you why don't you or anybody pick the people with no ranks? Because you want to win, you don’t feel like wasting your time with the newbies, in other words people are also as elitist as the R9+ group, and that is not casual playing.

People think fun=win for most people who HA, you have to do what's most efficient for the teams hence have high rank and/or same build everyone else uses. Casual playing in HA is pretty out of the question unless you're willing to suffer the waiting and endless noob spams at you.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Red Apple

I find all the people complaining about it bunch of hypocrites that want to be as "elite" as the guys which are asking for a "rX+" group.... That is the real fun, and I don’t believe that is what you are talking about.

Can't really speak for all players though. Concept of "fun" is broad. I was amazed when someone said that they like to farm, but hey, whatever floats your boat.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Red Apple

Anet didn’t kill PvP,

and OJ Simpson didn't kill his wife.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Red Apple

if the ranks were taken out we would be in the same way just this time everyone is angry because most of the people at the party are newbies and /ragequitts every second, and people would still have to look for a HA Guild in order to access it.

If you can't tell who is "l33t" and "noob," then that solves the problem of getting into groups. Now for rage quitters, not everyone does this and the more difficult to access the skill of players, the less the ratings matter.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Red Apple

If Bob really wanted to join a high rank group was because he wanted to be on the major leagues, he was not there for recreation nor casual fun, he wanted to win straight forward into HoH and match the big daddies. He deserves to be trashed, because he is a self proclaimed expert and felt he was way too much for joining newbie parties. You have to admit, HA is not for the casual player that is only there for 1 hr ~5hr, HA is a challenge for the experimented, as well as UW, FoW, and DoA.

But the problem is that not everyone just wants to have a great title, some just want to try different PvP.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Red Apple

Where does Anet states it is not a grind-free game?

Skill>Grind is the heart of ANet's philosophy. It's been straying from this idea the moment titles or becoming rich has become the goal of the game.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Red Apple

And if it is a casual player why would he be playing in hardcore areas? Those 3 areas(Uw, FoW, DoA) are designed for the fan and not for the casual player, why would a casual player be angry for not getting rare skin weapons, which they are not in anyway inferior to the common skin weapon.

UB has made everyone equal regardless of skill which kinda kills the Grinding<Skill idea. Of course its not only because of UB; people will grind with 330, 600, 55 and what not, but UB gives a vehicle to do this and has thus become the symbol of grind. UB may not have been the cause of it, but it has certainly help enforce the idea skill<grind.

It's like saying that because the intention to kill is still there, allowing access of nukes is not going to exacerbate the problem because they can still kill with pointy wooden sticks;

Red Apple · May 03, 2008, 06:01 PM // 18:01

Quote:

Originally Posted by Abedeus

Back of the Prophecies box, where it clearly states that skill, not time spent in-game matters.

Hmm. Let's see, what's in GW that is in WoW, but shouldn't be...

*Killing a lot of mobs to get an item? Check.
*Quests ,,kill XX mobs, return for reward''? Check.
*Little skill required? Check, but... WoW in high-end areas requires more skill. Don't believe? Remember Leeroy Jenkins? xd
*People playing longer have an advantage? Check.
*Skill < Time < Money? Check.

Did I forget about something?

You know >___> I have the 3 campaign boxes in front of me, the box doesn't have a back side (Proph), it have some kind of special way of opening the faces of the players, and I dont see where does it say that of no grinding, factions and nightfall boxes say about new skills, new content and such but i don't see a clue where is that, you can also try to point me out where does it says that at Gw.com

You could buy a pack of skills and start playing Gw(beginner) I play in Ra, with a Warrior build. I'm in some way inferior to a player that has the same skills and attributes like me? ( I read the whole description of how to use the build)

Kill alot of mobs to get a rare item, to exchange it for rare skinned armor, green and gold weapons can be mimicked at the Pvp arena. I have not heard of a weapon that is only on PvE and cost a lot because it is the ultimate weapon on HA or GvG, i just heard of skins and such.

Lerroy Stoekin is part of the expansion set which i think of it as a helping hand to the players, and also thats not an elite quest (I was talking about Uw, Fow, Doa)
Skill < Time < Money? Well you need at some point to play to know how to play = spend time but that doesn't make your skills inferior because you have player for 11hrs, and the other guy for 14hrs. What do you mean by money , real or in game?

Quote:

Originally Posted by MasterSasori

People think fun=win for most people who HA, you have to do what's most efficient for the teams hence have high rank and/or same build everyone else uses. Casual playing in HA is pretty out of the question unless you're willing to suffer the waiting and endless noob spams at you.

Can't really speak for all players though. Concept of "fun" is broad. I was amazed when someone said that they like to farm, but hey, whatever floats your boat.

and OJ Simpson didn't kill his wife.

If you can't tell who is "l33t" and "noob," then that solves the problem of getting into groups. Now for rage quitters, not everyone does this and the more difficult to access the skill of players, the less the ratings matter.

But the problem is that not everyone just wants to have a great title, some just want to try different PvP.

Skill>Grind is the heart of ANet's philosophy. It's been straying from this idea the moment titles or becoming rich has become the goal of the game.

UB has made everyone equal regardless of skill which kinda kills the Grinding<Skill idea. Of course its not only because of UB; people will grind with 330, 600, 55 and what not, but UB gives a vehicle to do this and has thus become the symbol of grind. UB may not have been the cause of it, but it has certainly help enforce the idea skill<grind.

It's like saying that because the intention to kill is still there, allowing access of nukes is not going to exacerbate the problem because they can still kill with pointy wooden sticks;

Yes the definition of fun can vary a lot, thats is why its hard to please everyone, and if the definition I put there is not what the topic is talking about then the need of playing and being recognized is what is meant for fun, and so I would have to assume people want to be recognized for not doing anything, how do you go to anywhere and try to fight the guy that is at the top and defeat it with no effort? You cant or else the game would be boring, would be like being always on God-mode.

Well okay Anet killed it k?, but who helped

. Skill>Grind yes experience over gaming hours, you need to play to get titles = grind, title = party, blame the party and the wannabe hardcore rich gamers? Dunno, I just don't think Anet is the only one included in the problem. Grinding come for people that want to "finish" the game easly and quick, everyone wants to do that, but its because there is nothing left on GW that people can enjoy without paying attention like the whole lore and all the interactions at the pve. What generally now find fun is to get rich and have many rare skins and such, thats is why the game is dieing, I blame the people not Anet

.

Tyla · May 03, 2008, 06:10 PM // 18:10

Quote:

Originally Posted by Red Apple

You know >___> I have the 3 campaign boxes in front of me, the box doesn't have a back side (Proph), it have some kind of special way of opening the faces of the players, and I dont see where does it say that of no grinding, factions and nightfall boxes say about new skills, new content and such but i don't see a clue where is that, you can also try to point me out where does it says that at Gw.com

Quote:

Originally Posted by Guild Wars Original

...Guild Wars is an online roleplaying game that rewards player skill and innovative gameplay over hours spent online...

Source: http://www.guildwars.com/products/guildwars/default.php

And before you continue on this subject, Grind is doing something repetitively which requires time more than anything else.

Red Apple · May 03, 2008, 06:28 PM // 18:28

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tyla

Source: http://www.guildwars.com/products/guildwars/default.php

And before you continue on this subject, Grind is doing something repetitively which requires time more than anything else.

What bugs me is the word rewards maybe marketing, dunno, but about what you said, you still don't need to grind to complete the storyline of Guild Wars do you? You would have to grind in order to get a helping hand in order to get the hard mode done in the campaign or to make the normal mode a easy mode.

Tyla · May 03, 2008, 06:36 PM // 18:36

What?
Read the thread title.

"The hidden grind: Why grind --> benefits is bad for PvE."

It isn't mentioned anywhere that it is required to complete anything in the game.
The fact that a few benefits, however small can turn into rank discrimination if you don't: Have the time to grind or find repetetive tasks boring.

People WILL take as much advantage of this as possible, and keep people who don't favour repetetive tasks away from their own tasks.
It is extremely clear this would happen, so either ANet intended this to happen or was pretending thin air was a brick wall.

Red Apple · May 03, 2008, 06:44 PM // 18:44

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tyla

What?
Read the thread title.

"The hidden grind: Why grind --> benefits is bad for PvE."

It isn't mentioned anywhere that it is required to complete anything in the game.
The fact that a few benefits, however small can turn into rank discrimination if you don't: Have the time to grind or find repetetive tasks boring.

People WILL take as much advantage of this as possible, and keep people who don't favour repetetive tasks away from their own tasks.
It is extremely clear this would happen, so either ANet intended this to happen or was pretending thin air was a brick wall.

what I meant by that answer was to replay to what holymasamune wrote:

Quote:

Originally Posted by holymasamune

If Anet wants to be like WoW, at least they should make a point of it. You simply don't go out advertising that this is a grind-free game, and when a new player buys it, they find they can't play a large portion of the end-game because their lack of grinding makes it impossible for them to find groups. Sure they can join good guilds running balanced builds, but how likely is that given a very casual player? The direction GW (and GW2) is changing into is one that'll attract more players in general, but with their goal changes, they should also change their advertising.

I don't find that real because of what I have already said, you only will encounter the hidden grinding, after, and only after you go past what Guild Wars was intended, the storyline. You play the storyline and you can be happy with it, and if you want to play more, you would have in some small parts to join a griding community. It was a forced intention IMO of Anet, keep the players on the game until the release of a major campaign or a new game, which they will like much more.

Steps_Descending · May 05, 2008, 01:25 AM // 01:25

Quote:

Originally Posted by Fog Accomplice

it's an MMO, synonymous for grind.

That sums it up!

moriz · May 05, 2008, 03:04 AM // 03:04

ah, except GW is, strictly speaking, NOT an mmorpg. in fact if you think about it, GW is about as "mmorpg"ish as diablo2.

as such, some of the rules (maybe even all the rules) that applies to mmos, does not necessarily apply to GW.

Thizzle · May 05, 2008, 03:07 AM // 03:07

If you spend 90% doing H/H then what does it matter?

Longasc · May 06, 2008, 09:22 AM // 09:22

GW was awesome in the regard that you could play with everyone easily.

WoW has huge level differences (level 5 playing with level 55 is pointless, except you consider dragging people through fun), and at level 70 considerable gear differences. Lots of issues preventing playing together.

Now we got more and more skills, heroes, and the mentioned bear skill tied to grinding.
It takes more and more time for players to get all the things together to play with others without severe restrictions.
Not having 1 or 2 chapters and none of the new pve skills is really restricting.

Sure, you do not need to have Factions and Nightfall to play EOTN... but you are severely hampered if you don't.

This is really a bad thing, going against some fundamental design ideas of GW. They probably changed their vision again, nobody seems to know anymore what they had in mind at all...^^

JR · May 06, 2008, 10:38 AM // 10:38

The difficulty, from a design perspective, is giving people 'things to do' without needing to flesh out the game with more content. That isn't a jab at Anet, personally I am happy for them to focus on Guild Wars 2.

Without titles where is the incentive to play? Since I started playing PvE again about two months ago I have played through all three campaigns. These days I do dungeon runs and rep farm with friends to max out my titles. I quite enjoy it, frankly I have more fun with what EotN brought to the game more than any of the chapters.

I don't have SY, my Ursan (which I've used once, and probably never will again) is only rank 4, and I've yet to find a single mission/area that can't easily be cleared with 2 players and 6 heroes, most just with H&H. When using something like "Sabway" it becomes a joke, and that certainly doesn't require any kind of rank. Frankly if you don't have a friends/guildies to play with and help you out I don't know why you still play this game.

If you want the speed/convenience of clearing an area with an Ursan pug, then you are going to have to grind up your Ursan. You might not like it if you don't have the patience to do it, but really there is nothing wrong with that in concept. I agree that the Norn blessings are particularly bad mechanics. They take a whole bunch of thought out of the game, make it feel even more of a mindless grind, and put too much emphasis on the importance of title rank. However, Ursan is still less efficient than regular builds in the hands of good players.

Instead of complaining about how it is, think about what it would be like otherwise. I personally have no problem with titles as they stand, they give me something to do. Otherwise I would probably not have even bothered starting to PvE again.

For those of you comparing this to WoW or 'Korean grind MMOs', I question how many you have played or how far you have got in them. The grind in Guild Wars is absolutely miniscule compared to Lineage, Everquest, Silkroad, WoW or any other comparable titles.

The problem, I believe, is the dominance of ovepowered title linked skills like Ursan/SY. I don't think people would be too bothered about finding a Warrior with rank 10 Brawling Headbutt for example, though it's a skill that still sees a lot of use. If all PvE skills were in line with that then I think the problem would dissapear. Proof that balance does indeed matter in PvE, though sadly Anet probably wont alter this situation. It's harder to justify balance changes in PvE to the playerbase, because your enemies usually aren't beating you with overpowered skills.

[Also; this should be in Riverside, not Campfire.]

Rushin Roulette · May 06, 2008, 11:30 AM // 11:30

Quote:

Originally Posted by Eru Valenehtar

This is just the same when you would go to do underworld, and everyone was just "Pro SS" or "Pro 55."

nearly 100% of these so called Pro players are in truth actually extremely bad and just want to advertize better to get more attention.

Ive been with a few so called Pro 55 monks who managed to get multiple wipes even before clearign the chamber was completed (no thinking of reaching either the Vale or Ice plains) because they leeroyed ahead of me and triggered Dying popups.

On the other hand Ive played with a few tanks which just took my breath away taking on everything in sight (3 groups of smites and 2 Coldfire groups), then proceding to complete the Servants of Grenth quest as if it were nothing.

Grinding in PvE is not really that bad, you can get a decent Rank in most lines (apart from Factions) by just playing the game through and taking the shrine blessings/bounties/hunts as you see them (r7 Norn is easy for example without grinding at all and that is enough to have a constant speedboost and do a decent amount of damage).

BlackSephir · May 06, 2008, 12:09 PM // 12:09

Quote:

Originally Posted by Steps_Descending

That sums it up!

Sure does! Just show me where did you find a definition of MMOs that says they just have to be connected with grind.
Was it "by retards for retards"?

MasterSasori · May 06, 2008, 04:41 PM // 16:41

Quote:

Originally Posted by JR

The problem, I believe, is the dominance of ovepowered title linked skills like Ursan/SY. I don't think people would be too bothered about finding a Warrior with rank 10 Brawling Headbutt for example, though it's a skill that still sees a lot of use. If all PvE skills were in line with that then I think the problem would dissapear. Proof that balance does indeed matter in PvE, though sadly Anet probably wont alter this situation. It's harder to justify balance changes in PvE to the playerbase, because your enemies usually aren't beating you with overpowered skills.

Wow if Ursan went PvP....

Shyft the Pyro · May 06, 2008, 11:27 PM // 23:27

The right way to answer Why is there grind in GW? is with another question: Why do we need to keep playing?

From the business perspective, ANet has absolutely nothing to gain from our continued use of its server resources. If we've already bought the games/expansions/unlocks/BMP/etc., ANet already has all the money it's going to make off us, which means we are effectively useless to it as far as GW1 goes.

From the gameplay perspective, wasn't GW the game you could pick up and put away at will? Wasn't the idea of no fees marketed specifically as an alternative to "keep playing while you're paying" games, towards the "casual gamer?" (Which, frankly, is a mental construct, but that's another topic.) Why is it suddenly that GW players need to keep playing GW?

And before you say Hall of Monuments, please consider ANet's existing track record with that debacle of a concept, the (financially savvy) decision to reveal nothing about its future benefits, and the incredibly distant release date of GW2. Player retention should not be as important as player fatigue. ANet already has brand recognition among its past customers; keeping them playing is incredibly unlikely to ensure or lock in GW2 sales. Instead, we'll just end up with hype and people quitting, but where this is fine for GW1 (which was designed with quitters in mind), people who don't make the initial jump to GW2 will definitely end up as a lost cause for ANet.